What was the famous Jesuit's point of view?

Then Mr. Garnet, having license of the Court to answer what he could for himself, spake and divided all which had been objected,  to his remembrance, into four parts, viz. containing matter of, first, doctrine; secondly, recusants; thirdly, Jesuits in general; fourthly, himself in particular.

First in doctrine, he rememberd two points- 

1. Concerning equivocation: whereunto he answered that their Church condemned all lying, but especially if it be in cause of religionand faith, that being the most pernicious lie of all others, and by St. Augustine condemned in the Prisciallianists; nay, to lie in any cause is held a sin and evil. However of eight degrees which St. Augustine maketh, the lowest indeed is to lie for to procure the good of some, without hurting of any.  So then our equivocation is not to maintain lying but to defend the use of certain propositions; for a man may be asked of one, who hath no authority to interrogate, or examined concerning something which belongeth not to his own cognisance who asketh, as what a man thinketh, &c.  So then no man may equivocate when he ought to tell the truth, otherwise he may.  And so St. Augustine upon John saith that Christ denied he know the Day of Judgment, viz, with purpose to tell it to his disciples; and so St. Thomas, and others who handle this matter, chiefly under the title of confession.
2. For the second point, which was the power of the Pope in deposing of princes, his answer was three fold.  (1) That therein he only propounded and dfollowed the general doctine of the Church.  (2) That this doctrine of the power of the Pope was by all other Catholic princes tolerated without grievance.  (3) That yet for his own part he always made a difference in the matter of excommunicating and deposing of princes, betwixt the condition and state of our King and of others, who haveing sometimes been Catholics, did or shall afterwards fall back.  As for Simanca, and other writers, whatsoever they set down at the deposing of heretics, it is to be understood of those princes who, haveing sometimes professed the faith of the Church of Rome, do afterwards make a defection from the same.

Secondly, for recusants:
1. I desire them not to impute any offence or crime of mine to the prejudice of the cause of religion.
2. Concerning their not going to Church, whereas it was urged by Mr. Attorney that the ground of their not going to Church was the excommunicaiton and the Bull of Pius Quintus, and that now they may go, for that His Majesty is not denounced excommunicate, I answer that it followeth not; for the Arians and the Catholics had the same service in their Churches, hyet came they not together; and I know divers myself who, before the Bull, refused to go to Church all the time of Queen Elizabeth, though perhaps most Catholics did indeed go to Chuirch before.  It was about the end of the Council of Trent where this matter was discussed by twelve learned men and concluded not lawful.  And this was occasioned for that Calvin himself held it not lawful for any Protestant to be p[resent, not only at our Mass, wherein perhaps they may say there is idolatry, but not at our Evensong, being the same with theirs.

Thirdly, concerning the Jesuits, he said that if any were privy to such horrible treasons, it was impious, especially in men of their profession; but said that he talked with some of them about it, and that they denied it.

Fourthly, touching myself.  The negotiation into Spain was indeed propounded unto me, and I was also acquainted with the negotiation for money, but ever intended it should be bestowed for the relief of poor Catholics; but when they were there, they moved for an army, which , when they afterwards acquainted me withal, I misliked it, and said it would be much disliked at Rome; only I  mustneeds confess I did conceal it after the example of Christ, Who commands us, when our brother offends, to reprove him;  for if he do amend, we have gained him.  Yet I must needs confess that the laws made against such concealing are very good and just, for it is not fit the safety of a prince should depend upon any other man's conscience.  to that I am verily persuaded, if they yielded to me, it had been good; but what trheir intent and meaning was in desiring an army I knew not, and I was charged not to meddle therein, no, not with the money that was to be sent for pensions, though it was to maintain the title of the King.

The Earl of Salisbury: To maintain whose title?
Garnet: the title of the King of Spain
The Earl of Northampton asked him why he did not oppose himself against it, and forbid it, as he might have done.
For qui cum possit non prohibet, jubet.
Whereupon Garnet answered that he might not do it; and for sending of letters, and commending some persons thereby, he confessed he did it often, as they were commended to him without knowing either their  purposes, or some of their persons; for he never knew Mr. Wright, for whom he writ.

The Earl of Salisbury then replied to Garnet: I must now remember you how little any of your answers can make for your purpose when you would ask  to colour your dealing with Baynam by professing to write to Rome to procure a contermand of conspiracies; and yet you know, when he took his hourney towards Rome, the blow mush needs have been passed before the time  he could have arrived to the Pope's presence (such being your zeal and his haste for any such prevention), as it was about the 20th of October when he passed by Florence towards Rome.
To which Garnet made no great answer, but let it pass; and then wnet on with his defense of sending letters in commendation of many of those with which he had been formerly charged, and so confessed that he had written commendation of Fawkes, thinking htat he went to serve as a soldier, not knowing then of any other purpose he had in hand.  And as for Sir Edmund Baynam, what he or Mr. Catesby intended he knew not in particular; only Mr. Catesby asked him in general the question of the lawfulness to destroy innocents with nocents, as had been before objected against him; "which at first I thought," said Garnet, "had been an idle question, though afterwards I did verily think he intended something that was not good. "  Whereupon, having shortly after this received letters from Rome to prohibit all insurrections intended by Catholics which might perturb this State, Garnet informed Catesby there of, and told him that if he proceeded against the Pope's will he could not prevail; but Catesby refused and said he would not take notice of the Pope's pleasure by him. Notwithstanding, he showed to Catesby the general letter which he had received from Rome, but said he would inform the Pope and tell Garnet also in particular what attempt he had in hand, if he would hear it, which afterwards he offered to do, but Garnet refused to hear him, and at two several times requested him to certify the Pope what he intended to do.

And when Sir Edmund Baynam (as he pretended) was to go over into Flanders for a soldier, Garnet thought good to send him to the Pope's Nuncio, and to commend him to other friends of his that they should send him to inform the Pope of the distressed estate of Catholics in England;  the rather, that the Pope, having a layman there, might be acquainted with all their proceedings; and that Baynam might then learn of the Pope what course he would advise the Catholics in England to take for their own good; but wished Baynam in no case to use Garnet's name to the Nuncio in that behalf.

Witnesses Called

Then were the two witnesses called for, both of them persons of good estimation, that overheard the interlouction betixt Garnet and Hall the Jesuit, viz., Mr. Fauset, a man learned and a Justice of Peace, and Mr. Lockerson.  But Mr. Fauset being not present, was sent for to appear; and in the meantime Mr. Lockerson, who being deposed before Garnet, delivered upon his oath, that they heard Garnet say to Hall:" They will charge me with my prayer for the good success of the great action in the begining of the Parliament, and with the verses which I added in the end of my prayer-

Gentem auferte perfidam
Credentium de finibus,
Ut Christo laudes debitas
Persolvamus alacriter.

 It is true, indeed, said Garnet, that I prayed for the good success of that great action; but I will tell them, that I meant it in respect of some sharper laws, which I feared they would then make against Catholics, and that answer shall serve well enough."

Here Garnet repied that, for the two gentlemen that heard the interloucution, he would not charge them with purjury, because he knew them to be honest men; yet he thought they did mistake some things, though in the substantial parts, he confessed, he could not deny their relation.  And for the main Plot, he confessed that he was therewithal acquainted by Greenwell particularly; and that Greenwell came perplexed unto him to open something, which Mr. Catesby with divers others intended; to whom he said he was contented to hear by him what it was so as he would not be acknown to Mr. Catesby, or to any other that he was made privy to it.
Whereupon Father Greenwell told him the whole Plot and all the particulars thereof, with which he protested that he was very much distempered, and could never sleep quietly afterwards, but sometimes prayed to God that it should not take effect. 

To that the Earl of Salsbury replied that he should do well to sepak clearly of his devotion in that point, for otherwise he must put him in remembrance that he had confessed to the Lords that he had offered sacrifice to God for stay of that Plot, unless it were for the good of the Catholic cause.  "And in no other fashion." said his Lordship, "was this state beholden to you for you mases and  oblations," adding thus much further that he wondered why he would not write to his surperior Aquaviva as well of this particular Powder-treason as to procure prohibition for other smaller matters.
Garnet faintly answerd he might not disclose it  to any, because it was matter of secret confession, and would endanger the life of diverse men.
Whereunto the Earl of Northampton replied that that matter of confession, which before he refused to confess, because he would save lives, he confessed it now to endanger his own life, and therrefore his former answer waaas idle nad frivolous.

Then Garnet told the Lords that he commanded Greenwell to dissuade Catesby, which he thought he did; and if Catesby had come to him upon Allhallow-day, he thought he could so far have ruled him as he would have been persuaded to desist.

The Earl of Salisbury: Why did you refuse to hear Catesby tell you all the particulars, when he would have told you, if you had been desirous to prevent it?

Garnet replied that after Greenwell had told him what it was which Catesby intended, and that he called to mind what Catesby said to him, at his first breaking with him in general terms, his soul was  so troubled with mislike of that particular, as he was loth to hear any more of it.

"Well, then, " said the Earl of Salisbury, "you see his heart." And then turning to the Lords Commissioners, he desired leave of the that he might use some speefch conerning the proceedings of the State in this greate cause from the first beginning until that hour; and so began to this effect:

Salisbury's Statement

That although the evidence had been well distributed and opened by Mr. Attorney, as he had never heard such a mass of matter better contracted, nor made more intelligible to the jury, to whom it was not his part to speak, nor his purpose to meddle with Mr. Garnet in divinity or in the doctrine of equivocation, in which latter he saw how he  had played his master-prize; yet because he had been particullarly used in this service with other of the Lords Commissioner, by whom nothing was more desired, next the glory of God, than to demonstrate to the world with what sincerity and moderation His Majesty's justice was carried in all points, he would be bold to say somewhat of the mannero f this arraignment, and of the place whre it was appointed.  For the first, he said that, seeing there was nothing to which this Starte might more attribute the infinite goodness and blessings of God than to the protection of the true religion, which had groaned so long under the bittter persecutions of men of his profession, he confessed that he held himself greatly honoured to be na assistant amongst so many great lords at the seat of justice, where God's cause should receive so much honour by discrediting the person of Garnte, on whom the common adversary had thought to confer the ursurpatoion of such an eminent jurisdiction; for otherwise, who did not know that the quality of poor Henry Garnet might have undergone a more ordinary form of trial and ahply in some other place of less note and observation? And so his Lordship took an occassion to declare that the City of London was so dear to the King, and His Majesty so desirous to give it all honour and comfort as ,when this opportunity was put into his hand s wherby there might be made so visible an anatomy of Popish doctrine, from whence these treasons have their source and support, he thought he could not choose a fitter stage than the City of London, which was not only rightly termeed " The Chamber of his Empire." but was by His Majesty esteemend as his greatest and safest treasury, who accounteth no riches comparable to his subjects hearts, and acknowledgeth that such a circut did never contain so many faithful subjects within the walls; a matter well appearing to his own eyes amongst others upon the descease of the late Queen of precious memory, when he, attending most of the Peers and Privy Counsellors of this Kingdom, who were accompanied with no small number of noble and faithful gentlemen, had seen them all stayed fromentry within the gates of this city until they had publicly declared with one voice hat they would live and die wieth the King our Soverign Lord.

To you, therefoe, Mr. Garnet," said the Earl of Salisbury, "must I address myself, as the man in whom it appeareth best what horrible treasons have been covered under the mantle of religion, which heretofore have been petty treason for a Protestant to have affirmed.  Such has been the iniquity of false tongues, who have always sought to prove the truth a liar. Of which impudent calumnies the State is so tender, as you do best know, mr. Garne, that since your apprehension, even till this day, you have been a Christianly, as courteously, and as carefully used as every man could be, of any quality or any profession: yea, it may truly be said that you have ben as well attended for health or otherwise as a nurse-child, Is it true or no?

" It is most true, my lord," said Garnet, "I confess it." "Well then," said the Earl, "if your strange doctrine of equivocation be observed, and your hardness of heart to deny all things, let it not be fgorgotten that this interlocution of yours with Hall, overheard by others appears to be  digitus Dei;  for thereby had the Lords some light and proof of matter aaginst you, which must have been discovered otherwise by violence and coercion, a matter ordinary in other kingdoms, though now forborn here: but it is better as it is for the honour of the State, for so were your own words, that you thought it best to tell the truth at last, when you saw you were confounded  tanta nube testium.  In which I protest that I do confidently assure myself that you would as easily have confessed yourself to be the author of all the action as the concealer, but that His Majesty and my Lords were well contented to draw all from you without racking, or any sch bitter torments.  I pray you, Mr. Garnet, what encouraged Catesby that he might proceed but your resolving him in the first proposition?  What warranted Fawkes but Catesby's explication of Garntt's arguments?- as appears infallibly by Winter's confession, and by Fawkes, that they knew the point had been resolved to Mr. Catesby by the best authority."

Then Garnet answered that Mr. Catesby was to blame to make such application.
To that the Earl replied that he must needs be bold  with thim, to drive him from the trust he had, to satisfy the world by his denials, by putting him in mind how,  after the interlucution betwixt him and Hall, when he was called before all the Lords and was asked, not what he said but whether Hall and he had conference together, desiring him not to equivocate; how stiffly he denied it upon his soul, reiterating it with so many detestible execrations as, the Earl said, it wounded their hearts to hear him; and yet as soon as Hall had confessed it, he grew ashamed, cried the Lord's mercy, and said he had offended if equivocation did not help him.

to this Garnet answered that when one is asked a qauestion before a magistrate he was not bound to answer before some witnesses be produced against tim, Quia nemo tenetur prodere seipsum.

Then Garnet, falling into some professions of his well wishing to His Majesty, and being put in mind of the answer he made concerning the excommunicaiton of kings, wherein he referred himself to the cannon of Non Sanctorum,  he ansewered that His Majesty was not yet excommunicated.

Then the Earl of Salisbury bade him deal plainly, for now was the time, whether in case the Pope, per sententiam orthodoxam,  should excommunicate the King's Majesty of Great Britain, his subjects were bound to continue their obedience.

To this Garnet denied to answer.

From that matter he began to make request that, where he had confessed the receiving of two Briefs or Bulls from the Pope in the Queen's time, by which all Catholics were forbidden  to adhere to any successor that was not obedient to the Church of Rome, His Majesty would be pleased to make a favorable interpretatin, because he had shown them to very few Catholics in England in the Queen's time; and when he understood that the Pope had changed his mind, he then burnt the Bulls.

To that it was said that belike the Pope changed his mind when the King was so safely possessed of his estate, and Garnet iwth his complices began to feel their own impiety, and so, as Catesby said to Percy, did resolve roundly of that treason which would speed all at once.

Then Garnet becan to use some speeches that he was not consenting to the Powder-Treason.

Whereupon the Earl of Salisbury said: Mr. Garnet, give me but one argument that you were not consenting to it that you can hold in any indifferent man's ear or sense, besides your bare negative.
But Garnet replied not.-Source: Trial of Guy Fawkes and otheres (The Gunpowder Plot)., Edited by Donald Carswell, William Hodge and Co. Ltd., London.
 
 

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